[sam@sambrown.co.uk]

Hello everyone.

Our community wind band will soon, thanks to some charity funding, be buying thirty Android tablets. I am the band's librarian (and trombonist) and so I will be the guy responsible for making sure all the tablets are correctly set up. I feel I am right at the start of a massive learning curve... and it's quite daunting and overwhelming. I'd really appreciate some gentle help and advice.

My hope is that the thirty tablets can all be exact copy clones of one 'master' tablet. The band owns the tablets and will not allow players to take the tablets away from gigs and rehearsals. As each tablet will be identical, the players should be able to pick up any of the tablets and navigate to their instrument - for example THIRD CLARINET. From there they have access to all the third clarinet content parts of our entire library of music. From my research so far I can then set up a folder with just the songs for our next concert: all the third clarinet parts in order, ready to play.


Now it starts to get complicated. For example: if we have two THIRD CLARINETISTS in the band and one of them starts marking up their part with reminders and directions, that copy of the part is now personalised to that player. The other THIRD CLARINETIST should still be playing from an un-marked version of the file (and my indeed start putting their own mark-ups on their part). Is it possible to have multiple 'mark-up overlays' each given a personalised name of the player? 

Can I update all thirty tablets in one go, or do I have to do each one individually? We have good wifi here, but perhaps there is a cable loom system for large ensembles? 

Another potential problem is that I'm on a Mac and have no clue how Windows works. Am I correct that I can run all the Android tablets from the comfort of my own personal iPad which would function as the 'MASTER' device? 

I have Dropbox too and I believe this will be important for syncing and backing up.

I'm sorry if these questions are making you all groan out loud and roll your eyes to the ceiling... I'll get there eventually, but some friendly guidance would be very much appreciated and valued. I couldn't find much info out there about using mobilesheets for large ensembles, but I'm guessing it must be possible.

Thanks,

Sam

[Swiss1000]

You're approaching the problem backwards. MS won't let you get out of this easily... Lend the tablets and make your musicians responsible for restoring them before the rehearsal or concert. For the orchestral section scores, MS is still not capable of proper organization. We've asked for it, but it's far from being the case. So you need to create "libraries" by category (brass, violins, etc.)

Let me suggest a refelxion : starting with a MAC for master is a bad idea... Client Server is another world...

[Zubersoft]

Sam,

At the moment, it will be difficult to have a central repository that every musician shares that also makes it easy for each musician to only see the version of the scores they need for their instrument. That's absolutely something I plan on addressing (I've discussed a big update related to this many times on the forum), but it will still be a while before I implement all the changes for this. I've also had many requests about the ability to only synchronize certain annotation layers so that users can keep their own annotations while still allowing some annotations to be synchronized (if a conductor needs to annotate certain things that all musicians should see). 

For the time being, it might be best to have separate libraries for each instrument. This will increase the amount of time it takes to manage all the separate libraries, but would keep other things simpler in terms of managing things for each instrument. This also lets you use the backup library/restore features and the library synchronization features for each individual library, whereas you won't be able to do that with a central library until I add the versioning features in the future.

Mike

[mdavej]

Collections would work fine. Why must you have multiple libraries?

Why are markups a problem. People have lived with the same on paper charts forever. If the don't like the previous member's marks, I ignore them. Your library sync can also be clean for the new members.

[Swiss1000]

I don't agree with either of the two previous posts: 

1) ONE LIBRARY PER MUSICIAN? That's the worst. It means we're continuing with the logic of musicians being geeks without taking ensemble management into account. It doesn't work, as I can attest. When a musician says "I want paper," that's the best proof. 

2) PERSONAL NOTES ARE ESSENTIAL: Musicians agree to receive a new musical score before rehearsal, but they REFUSE to lose their personal notes. MS really needs to get back to basics: Paper, REAL-WORLD Practice... 

Creating a library per instrument is illogical. The real-world definition of the concept of BOOKSTORE explains the reason. Do you know of a BOOKSTORE that updates its books because a reader used a red pencil on the book in the BOOKSTORE 50KM away??? MS really needs to reposition itself in the real world. Few people want virtualization, and imposing it is worse... 


Imagine: 
1) The conductor distributes sheets of paper called "Music Scores." He can distribute a new one at each rehearsal because he has corrected the relevant comments and annotations. 

2) The musician finds a new score, but keeps his personal notes. Sometimes they are obsolete, sometimes they are not because they help him in the performance. The musical scores BELONG to the conductor; the notes are the property of the musician. On the same PDF file, the personal notes are a sort of "transparent layer" that he places on the conductor's score. 

If MS want to be a real and usefull tool for large bands, it have to follow the "paper" procedure...

[BRX]

I'm a bit annoyed with Swiss1000 recurring statements MS would not provide proper means of organisation for band sheets.

It might be true that MS has been conceived as an organizing and displaying tool for one's personal PDF sheet collection and grown from that.
And T'm certain that still is and will be Mike's main target group which is vastly larger than the much smaller group of "centralized band orgainsators".

As we know MIke wants to and will address features for that like he does for all his customers. But IMHO it isn't the priority and necessity it is made here by Swiss1000.

All the more because MS already provides so many means and possibilities to get most of the things done one could want for sheets organization.

IMHO it's more that Swiss1000 expects Mike to develop and change MS to accomodate his very personal needs and workflow instead of trying to change his and find a solution with what MS already offers.

Sam, I don't think you need separate libraries (that's certainly one way to go), but I think what you want could be achieved better with collections (or other groups), snippets and layers.

(MIke, chime in, if I'm getting something wrong).

You would have quite some work to do initially but managing it after the first setup should be relatively easy.

You can have one master tablet where you set all up and then sync it to the other client tablets.

At first I would use PDFs which contain the complete sheets of the pieces (score, instruments etc.). Maybe you have such PDFs already, if not, they are easily created with PDF-Editors or Tools.

These complete PDFS must be imported onto your master tablet and should be put in a collection titled "complete PDFs" or any name you like. After that the tedious work begins. You have to create snippets from those "masters" for each instrument, selecting only the required pages from the complete PDF and rename the snippet accordingly. These new instrument snippets then should be organized in groups, for instance another collection but the other groups tabs are usable, too.

(Actually you don't have to use snippets and can use single PDFs as well, if they exist and you want to import them rather than make snippets where you have to define the pages ranges. Personally I prefer and use the snippet approach because I like having just one PDF file for all and save space on the tablet)

I don't want to go into specifics but only tell the principles.

Wenn you have done that you are already good to go to copy/sync the contents of your master tablet to the other ones.

And you can already do your first practise. Now to the pesonal notes. You have to teach your players not only how to do annotations for their notes. But if different players use the same PDF snippet and you will give them their own annotations you have to teach them the use of layers as well. It's not difficult, but you have to watch for having (and naming) different layers to put the annotations in and hiding and unhiding them as required.

This works as long they don't play and edit at the same time. If that can happen (or you don't want to work with layers) you can always make an additinal snippet for the same instrument and name them with the playeer name or a number.

I think as long each player only makes changes in his own instrument there shouldn't be much trouble even syncing all this to the master. But since I don't sync my databases with the MS sync feature I rather let Mike or others explain or dispute that.

[Skip]

"Now it starts to get complicated. For example: if we have two THIRD CLARINETISTS in the band and one of them starts marking up their part with reminders and directions, that copy of the part is now personalised to that player. The other THIRD CLARINETIST should still be playing from an un-marked version of the file (and my indeed start putting their own mark-ups on their part). Is it possible to have multiple 'mark-up overlays' each given a personalised name of the player? "

A possible workaround for this [I have not done this, so no guaranty ]:
1-Edit [tap center of display>create snippets [circle w/triangle, bottom of display]. 

2-After creating the snippet/CSV, start at the main library, select the appropriate song [snippet] >edit song>rearrange pages [square w/mountains icon at display bottom]> Save as new song [overflow [3 dots top of display]. 

This should give you two identical copies, be sure to name one for each instrument. 

I think you could do this using copy but I could not find it. 

Unfortunately, I don't know how this will affect the original pdf so you may need to learn how to load multi-pdf's songs via CSV. I think CSV's load each song separately so annotations are separate while snippets annotations affect the basic multi-pdf, which you probably don't want. 

Assuming CSV's work, the second part of the workaround should be usable. 

The rest I think you can do as described by BRX above.

[Swiss1000]

"Now it starts to get complicated. For example: if we have two THIRD CLARINETISTS in the band and one of them starts marking up their part with reminders and directions, that copy of the part is now personalised to that player. The other THIRD CLARINETIST should still be playing from an un-marked version of the file (and my indeed start putting their own mark-ups on their part). Is it possible to have multiple 'mark-up overlays' each given a personalised name of the player? "
A possible workaround for this [I have not done this, so no guaranty ]:...

I know this solution. I'm trying to explain a simple fact: geeks don't need anything. For now, MS is geek-oriented and offers many options. Some even go so far as to add SQL, which is great, I know how to do it too. BRX explains that he's annoyed by criticism or different analytical points of view: it's a fan attitude, okay, he has the right.

My analysis explains that among musicians, many want a simple, "paper-oriented" screen, as simple as paper. Every time a computer scientist deviates from reality, it results in refusals or resistance. And I know that if you think you can "train" dozens of musicians, you create hundreds of questions.

Following the "paper process," which means "simply trying to replace paper with a PDF" and cardboard binders, should be the main process. I know Mike will open MS to help manage several bands. I brought a perspective and the fruit of 40 years of client-server application development, and here too, believe me, there was a lot of resistance.

Fair simple requires thought and, above all, structure. Here, we discussed the structure of libraries and the reason they exist, and especially the fact that several score providers work with several groups. The "you have to train them" argument is worthless; it guarantees failure and too much energy for a complicated result.

Regarding layers, a musician often doesn't understand them. You have to tell them that they're like a transparent plastic sheet placed on top. Asking them to manage several layers for four or five musical sections is like trying to do Everst with a group. 

PS: Using "Collection" or "Type of sources" have the same diffulty : There's a problem with "Type of Sources" in the French version. Currently, the "preset" Type Of Sources in English appear even after deleting them. As for using them as an instrumental key denominator (transcriber), it's a solution that requires a setlist per instrument type. It's a complex but possible solution.

[Skip]

My post was for the manager, not the musicians. He, apparently, is looking for ways to manage input to multiple tablets using what is available in MSP. Once he has the stuff loaded, then the musicians should, at least, know how to turn the tablet on and get to their instrument page. After all, they learn how to turn their instrument on, tune, adjust amps, use mics, etc. when needed. 
I'm pretty sure he's not really that concerned with the nuts/bolts of app design/programming, I know I'm not.  

[Swiss1000]

My post was for the manager, not the musicians. He, apparently, is looking for ways to manage input to multiple tablets using what is available in MSP. Once he has the stuff loaded, then the musicians should, at least, know how to turn the tablet on and get to their instrument page. After all, they learn how to turn their instrument on, tune, adjust amps, use mics, etc. when needed. 
I'm pretty sure he's not really that concerned with the nuts/bolts of app design/programming, I know I'm not.  

Absolutely, simply choose your instrument in "settings" for example, and the program only displays the PDFs concerning it when it opens a setlist.

[Skip]

All of the instruments, including voice, should be available in the main library within a single tab, not in a sub-directory, especially settings [the 'geek' tab', you don't want folks messing around in there]. The 'Custom Group' tab [settings> library>Custom Group Name] may be a candidate for this purpose if the necessary work flow can be accomplished using it.

If the custom tab is viable then, for the musician:
Turn tablet on>main library displays>select custom group, the only tab showing [instruments]>select instrument>select set list [should be the only one]. [settings>library settings>tab selection and order][A reason for not using settings for instrument selection.]

The manager would be responsible for prepping the tablets and maintaining the base library. I'm not sure how each tablet would get the correct setlist currently, probably separate libraries. Each tablet may require its own visible id so it is always issued to the same instrument.
Note- Using the base library on all devices would be easier if selecting the correct setlist when the instrument was selected can be made to work. I think that's where versioning is supposed to work.
I don't manage a group so this is just my guess on a starting point. 

I use the custom tab for a different purpose.

[Swiss1000]

When a choir or group hires a "director," they begin by proposing a list of pieces. So, we start with the setlist. 
Then they deliver the 3 or 4 scores in paper or PDF format (U, Bb, Lyrics, generally) and install the master score, for each songs in teh setlist. 

We created 3 to 5 separate PDF files, linked to a set list. If MS adds the "Transposition" feature (U, Bb, Eb, F, or Lyrics) and a way to set user preferences in the tablet settings, it's exactly as it did in the past: everyone "sees" their score, they see the whole score + the master, the singers see "U" and "Lyrics." 

During rehearsals, if help is needed, everyone annotates their score, just as they did with pen on paper. 

There's very little missing to achieve this. Then, for more bookstores, it is normal that "Director 1" does not mix with "Director 2", each has their own bookstore (library). 

Less is More

[mdavej]

I've run several bands using MS for years and never had any problems. I treat my band members like adults. The charts are on a shared drive. I tell them, this is the set, download your parts, the end. Doesn’t matter if they use MS or Forscore or UnReal or whatever. They are free to organize and notate however they want. If there are existing notes they don't want, they can get rid of them. By trying to control everything and deny your players any autonomy, you only make things more complicated. It's actually very simple. Just recognize that your musicians actually have a brain.

[McAroni]

Totally agree. We get Our sheet music via shared drive. And everyone is responsible for setting up their own sheet music.

[Swiss1000]

I've run several bands using MS for years and never had any problems. I treat my band members like adults. The charts are on a shared drive. I tell them, this is the set, download your parts, the end. They are free to organize and notate however they want. If there are existing notes they don't want, they can get rid of them. By trying to control everything and deny your players any autonomy, you only make things more complicated. It's actually very simple. Just recognize that your musicians actually have a brain.

We probabily not live in the same world...